HairSite - Hair Care & Hair Loss Forums
Topic M443 - Hair Multiplication & Other Advanced Treatments (forum # 36)

[ Male Forums |  Contents | Search | Post | Reply | Next | Previous | Up ]

Re: My take on embryionic stem cell research

From: Fred to Priestly
Remote Name: 24.7.6.140
Date: 12 Jul 2001
Time: 20:28:54

Comments

What you are saying then is that citizenship is to be granted by the whim of the parents.

What if the women on killed was on her way to the abortion clinic when she was run over? And that was provable? Should there be only one count of manslaughter?

The logical absurdities mount.

My primary point is that the designation of citizenship -the covenant between a human and our civilization- is based upon the perspective of the parents. A whim could change that. So if the mother feels good about having a child then citizenship is bestowed by the state. If not, then it is a clump of cells. One day she could feel like having it. The next...not. Oh I've changed my mind again. With each change of the mind, the entire structure of the State skips back and forth like a Andre the Giant saying, "Yes, it's a person, you say it is...No, it's not. You say it is not."

The huge assumption that we all make (well most of us) is that human beings have an intrinsic value. This is an enormous leap, from a logical point of view. It is about as big a leap as saying that there is a God. There is no logical reason why human beings can be said to have value just because they exist.

Surely this can be traced to evolution and survival, but I do not think that is what the law and that covenant purports to be based on.

With the advent of abortion we now have an ability to separate what we think of as non-human and human. That which is human is -in a legal sense- sacred. That sacred covenant is not based in anything empirical that science has to offer. Human life has value if for no other reason than that it exists. You cannot kill me even though I am not contributing to anyone or anything with my endless opining.

But a fetus in utero crosses a demarcation from non human to human. That line can change depending upon any number of things, including one's mood. Indeed, in the case of so called partial birth abortion, the fetus (not a baby, mind you, because we have moved Exist Day...sorry..) can make it across the finish line with part of its body and then be stabbed.

If you think that the thing does not feel pain by that point, then I suggest that you check out some of the studies of circumcision of new borns. For years it had been assumed that the little boys felt no pain. Whooops. Turns out it sho do hurt like a mofo. So, that same baby, cut sometimes a day or two after birth, ramped up its nervous system to feel pain in that short stretch of time from exiting the birth canal and the moment of circumcision? I don't think so. Babies hear in utero. They recognize their mother's voice. They may dream. They kick, they swim and they move. This requires a nervous system. A nervous system has many functions, one of the main ones is to feel pain. So when that baby is cut up as it exits the mother in partial birth abortions, you are darn tootin' that it hurts.

One thing that is troubling about abortion (And I think the stem cell debate goes more to abortion than stem cells, but that's just me...) is that with the advent of testing in utero, we now begin a modern, yuppy eugenics movement.

Recently someone I know became pregnant. In casual conversation she mentioned that they had decided to test the amnio (spelling?) and that if there was evidence of say, Down's Syndrome, they were going to abort.

That is saying that a person with Down's lives a life not worth living. A bold conclusion, IMHO.

Frankly, had this person not had that technology, and had given birth to a Downs Syndrome baby, she probably would have nonetheless fallen in love with the child and raised it with great troubles, but would have looked back and been glad for it, proud for it after so doing. She is not an evil person, per se.

But OTOH, I believe her decision is based on the fact that such a child would be very inconvenient and I think we live in a society which is very selfish (Myself included) and disdain of inconvenience is not really acceptable.

I was chilled by the casualness with which she made the statement. But that is just me.

Many children are aborted for having the wrong genitals. Look at China, where there is an under representation of girls.

Children are being aborted because of diseases, the possiblity thereof, and that is just the beginniing. For as technology marches on, and it will, then the test for all kinds of things will come online.

A baby who is gay. Abort?

One who is not tall. Abort? Well, we can't say that it is not the parent's right. It would be intrusive to say otherwise.

One who is not so so smart. Abort?

One who is fat. Abort?

One who is less that perfectly good looking? Abort?

One who has genes for MPB. Abort?

Forgive my overdoing it on that point, but it is a real one already.

And if a child with Downs Syndrome has a life that can be designated Not Worth Living while in utero (This person, to be clear, wants a baby and planned to have one...) then why cannot an already born person with such not be extinguished? It's life is Not Worth Living according to some and that is acceptable as the basis for abortion according to the State. It confuses me.

Does this mean a zygote is a human? Does it feel pain? Etc. Damn good questions. They give me pause. Do I want women to bear children of rape? It chills me too.

I do not have the problem of getting pregnant. I cannot ever know what that would do to my state of mind. I cannot say that if I were a woman, I would not have an abortion under duress. I like to think it, but I cannot affirm it one hundred percent (if only because I would no longer be myself as I know myself and it gets harder to comment on what is essentially another person's thinking...oh I do digres, don't I?)

But given all the questions, I am going to stick with what I can tell. While zygotes do not look like humans, they quickly start to look like an animal of some kind (Phylogeny recapitulates Ontogeny...is that the expession?) and then grows a tail.

I am thinking that the people in PETA should think about abortion in early stages as animal killing. Quickly moving up to killing a primate. And at some point, well, it kind of looks like a human infant. (I think it clearly does by about the third month. COrrect me if wrong.)

I'm a scaredy cat. I think I'll say that this thing that turns into a human being may be something to be left alone.

And again, until science can scientifically prove that it can define what is essentially human and then indicate the moment that it is acquired, then I will say that dispensing humanity at a designated moment that is a sort of guess and "I think it is..." without any empiricism (The hallmark of science.) then I will call that designation a form of voodoo with no science and is coincidentially one that gives great convenience to the vast majority of abortions which are not the product of rape, incest etc.

Please inform me when the proof -rigorous proof- comes along. I will sigh with relief when they do.

Fred

free backgammon

From: free backgammon
Remote Name: 80.227.56.46
Date: 01 Apr 2006
Time: 19:19:30

Comments

<a href="http://www.souptown.com/howtoplaycraps/">how to play craps</a> [URL=http://www.souptown.com/howtoplaycraps/]how to play craps[/URL]

<a href="http://blogs.ya.com/pokerodds/">poker odds</a> [URL=http://blogs.ya.com/pokerodds/]poker odds[/URL]

<a href="http://groups.google.com/group/Turning-Stone-Casino/">turning stone casino</a> [URL=http://groups.google.com/group/Turning-Stone-Casino/]turning stone casino[/URL]

<a href="http://www.koolpages.com/frbackgammon/">free backgammon</a> [URL=http://www.koolpages.com/frbackgammon/]free backgammon[/URL]

<a href="http://www.pokerseite.de.vu/">poker</a> [URL=http://www.pokerseite.de.vu/]poker[/URL]

<a href="http://www.megaone.com/vegascasino4/">vegas casino</a> [URL=http://www.megaone.com/vegascasino4/]vegas casino[/URL]

Last changed: April 18, 2007

© Copyright 1997 - 2001  TSE Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.
No part of this website can be reproduced. Contact info: HairSite@aol.com